Painting Life with Freedom

Episode Description

The Soviet Union was then a country that deprived its citizens of freedom and the right to go beyond their borders. 

Eva Sigaev was born in Ukraine, which was then part of the Soviet Union, experienced a period where there was a limited opportunity for the citizens to reach their dreams. They were prohibited from learning a new language and living in another place besides their country. Their life was like a painting deprived of color. 

When Eva started living in Kiev to study for college, she was cast as a model, and her knowledge about the world outside the Soviet grew wider. She was able to perform all over the world, and be on the cover of an Australian magazine. Along with these accomplishments, Eva was able to graduate with a bachelor’s degree in construction engineering. 

After the Soviet Union collapsed and Ukraine became an independent country, Eva, along with her partner, moved to the United States where she started a new life away from her established career back in Ukraine. With the long wait for her green card, Eva was not able to work, and this made her pursue different careers.

Now, Eva is working on a new business, which will open more opportunities for her and also help other women pursue a better life. 

Eva Sigaev’s story is something rare. It is a story of a woman who chases freedom and finds it in a place unknown to her. Eva did not let herself be comfortable with the many achievements she had. Instead, she took the bravery to enter a new world and find how far her potential can go. Eva was able to turn her black and white life into something more colorful, something that she is proud of and would never regret doing.

Get in touch with Eva


Tips and key takeaways


Episode Transcript

Daniel 0:03

Hi, everyone, and welcome to episode number 14 of the Emigrant's Life Podcast, where we share stories of people who left their country to chase a better life. I'm Daniel De Biasi, and in this episode, I had the pleasure to chat with Eva, a former runaway model from Ukraine. She grew up in the Soviet Union, where learning any language other than Russian was prohibited, and also leaving the country was very challenging. And if you did, you are not able to come back. You are not allowed to enter the Soviet Union anymore. Eva now lives in Chicago, United States. She joined her fiance about 15 years ago who had an opportunity to work in the US. Leaving Ukraine meant that she had to give up her career as a model. At that point, she had traveled all around the world and even be on the cover of an Australian magazine. Once in the US, it took her seven years before she received a green card and was able to work. Seven years. Can you imagine what it means not to have a job or a career for seven years? But that didn't stop her from learning new skills and be resourceful. Since she received her green card, Eva worked in many different fields from multilevel marketing to banking. She now starting her online business to help woman to have a better and more meaningful future despite their current situation. And speaking about online business, in this episode, we talk about the SFM. The SFM, or the six figures mentor is a learning platform and community for people who wants to start their online business or to take the current business to the next level. This is the first time they advertise a product in the show. It came out in the interview and I thought some of you might be interested. Having an online business could help to emigrate. Darya, for example, from the previous episode, managed to move to the US because she had money coming in every month from her business. To have a business online means you can work from anywhere. I joined SFM because I wanted to start my online business, but I didn't know where to start. And within a few months, I had this podcast up and running, something that I couldn't have done without the resources and the people from this community. If you're on a visa, you should always have a plan B. You never know rules change very often and your visa might not be renewed. Especially right now with there's so much uncertainty. My Plan B is to be able to work anywhere I want, as long as I have a laptop with me. If you're interested, you can find more about SFM in the show notes. And now, please enjoy my conversation with Eva.

Hi, Eva, thanks for being on the show.

Eva 2:31

Hi, Danielle. My pleasure.

Daniel 2:33

How are you?

Eva 2:34

I'm very good. And I'm very excited. Thank you for inviting me.

Daniel 2:38

No, thanks to you for accepting the invitation. So where are you originally from?

Eva 2:42

I am from Ukraine, from the land of Ukraine. But when I was born, it was Soviet Union because the countries were organized in one big country called the Soviet Union. So I was born in Soviet Union, but on the territory of Ukraine.

Daniel 3:04

Okay. And just for, just for for more clarification, what's the difference between to be into being in Russia and to be in Ukraine what's like a was it a big difference at that time?

Eva 3:16

Yeah, it's a little bit of that gray territory, which people still don't know much about. But since I was born there, I can give you a little bit of history on it. So Soviet Union was a big sort of United States of countries. But it wasn't that democratic like United States. It was some kind of big union of 15 countries which were on the one government which was located in Moscow, Russia. So Moscow, Russia was taking care of the politics in all those other countries to the point we wouldn't be able to speak native languages. Russian language was mandatory for all of us. And everything what was happening in Moscow supposed to be followed by other countries. And that's what the Soviet Union philosophy was.

Daniel 4:22

So even if you if you were living in Ukraine, you couldn't speak the language you have to speak Russian?

Eva 4:29


Daniel 4:30

Okay, so do you know do you speak Ukranian at all?

Eva 4:35

When I was born, I was born in a family of Soviet officer. So just because of the Soviet Union didn't let us study other languages, including Ukrainian or English or French. Plus, my father who was Soviet officer shouldn't be speaking other languages than Russian so I had no chance to learn Ukrainian.

Daniel 5:05

Oh, that's crazy.

Eva 5:07


Daniel 5:08

And where do you live now?

Eva 5:09

Now I live in beautiful Chicago, United States of America.

Daniel 5:14

Awesome. And what age did you leave your country to go to the US or how you managed to get to the US?

Eva 5:21

Right. It's a long story. So as I mentioned, my dad was Soviet officer, so we were traveling so much when I was two years old, he was appointed to be serving in Poland. So we moved to Poland and I was living there since I was two till the age of going to school. Then my parents moved me back to Eastern east part of Ukraine, but it was still Soviet Union. So I was living in little town, which I was born at. It's near Logan. It's East Ukrainian part. And I went to school there. So, but still I was speaking Russian all the time. Then we start moving all over the Soviet Union because he was always needed to sort of somewhere else. We moved to Moscow. He was going to academy he was brushing up on his military skills and I went to school there. Then we move to limpid squishes in the middle of Russia, then we move to Asia, somewhere near Tajikistan, that was quite an experience. Then couple years later, we moved to Czechoslovakia, which doesn't exist either. It's like Czech and Sullivan and republics now, right? It's two different countries but when I was 15, were moved there and I graduated my high school in Prague Then I decided I want to go to university in Kiev and Ukraine. Never been to Kiev before, but I saw a lot of pictures and somehow I decided that I want to study there. So I moved to Kiev. My mom brought me there. And I was so confident because I wanted to go to the university, National University trade and economics in capital of Ukraine. And being a great student with great grades, I had no problem thinking I will get into the university but I didn't. I don't even know why but I got bad grade on exam and I wasn't accepted. And it was totally surprise and shock for my parents because since I was already I graduated from high school, they cannot get me back to Czechoslovakia because that's the Soviet rules for Soviet military officers. So my mom had nothing to do with me and she just left me in Kiev alone. And I was 17 and my parents went back to Czechoslovakia and there was no cell phones, no internet, so they had no idea what's going on with me. But I was told I need to go to some kind of, you know, like Community College, get grade A, like grade A was ace and try to get into some different college make more dekhna so it's a long story. I don't want to explain the details, but that was the plan. Okay, I was staying in Kiev by myself. I was going to that college. I got my honor. graduate degree and I tried. And I got into the Kiev National University of building and architecture. It wasn't my dream, but it was good enough. I mean, at least I'm in the university now for four years. So my parents were happy I was staying in Kiev studying and when I was going through second year of my university, I was invited to the fashion house of design to become a model because I was having like enough having the body which they were looking for, you know, those sculptors on the street they just invited me.

Daniel 9:42

So that's how did they find you like on the street?

Eva 9:45


Daniel 9:46

Oh, well did like stop you like, I like you, you mind?

Eva 9:51

They just approached me. They said, how are you? You look nice. You look exactly what we're looking for. Would you be interested to become a model? And I was like, And they said, Well, if you want to know more, here's the business card, the phone number and the name of the person you can talk to. So a couple days later, I was passing by that building. And I saw the window with huge beautiful picture of model. And they say were looking for girls and when I see the measurements, that's exactly my, the, you know, how tall and how much a weigh and like I'm like, well, that's me. So I went inside, and I said, I want to be model and they said, Okay, let me measure you. They start measuring me and they said, that's exactly what we're looking for. Would you be able to come tomorrow for rehearsal? And I said, Okay, that was beautiful. That was the best decision of my life in those years.

Daniel 10:53

Yeah, I bet but I said, I don't know. Like, how did you did you feel like it was like a little bit dodgey when they approached you whether you like, or that was feel like it was legit that you were?

Eva 11:05

Yeah, it was totally legit. Those years we didn't think like something is, you know, we were we were more naive and we trust everything and those couple girls look so friendly and nice. And then I when I came to that building guy saw them again they work there. So everything was fine.

Daniel 11:26

Okay, so the next day you went back and you became a model from there?

Eva 11:31

Yeah, the next day I came back and it was about 15 or 16 of us sitting, waiting. They brought a high heeled shoes to all of us and they said we want to see you on stage. So come up. We came on the stage and they asked us to walk back and forth and I was about 19 years old. And they said okay, try this try that you have to fit in a close which they already have. Still they tried the clothes and they said thank you so much we will call you and I went back home so excited thinking about what's gonna change in my life without become a model. And next day they called me and they said, Would you be able to come for fitting? And I and I was in college, so I'm kind of Yeah, I'll do it afternoon after my college classes. They said no problem so I came for the fittings and they start trying clothes on me giving compliments and saying that's exactly what we need. Very nice to work with designers because they make you feel so special. And after that, when they put something on me, they asked me to come on stage again. And I came to the stage and there is another girl was from yesterday, near me, so it was just two of us and there was like a lot of like 12 people sitting in an audience as later it was one of them was a director of the fashion house and the marketing director and photographer and choreographer and designers and just two of us staying there. And they said, congratulations, yesterday, we had the castings, and we picked two of you, so I was so happy.

Daniel 13:30

So from like there were like a 16 of you the day before and they select just two of you?

Eva 13:35

Yes. Well, they had a lot of requirements. Only them know how to select the girl so I was blonde, she was brunette. That's probably what worked for them for that moment. So she became friend of mine and we're still friends. Her name is Marsha.

Daniel 13:54

So how would your life change from then on? Did you manage to finish your university or you you start be-become a model and so how big of a model you were were you? Like you were just in in in Ukraine or was like a globally?

Eva 14:10

So when I start coming for fititngs most most of the times modeling job is just stay hours and hours on fittings because they may close using you as a model that's what model is for right? They just you inspiring designers to create new piece of clothes and since my fashion house of design was not just the clothes but it was like collections they were creating a collection. You know, like, like you from Italy is probably know how the house of fashion houses work. They create the whole collection and then they represent that collection somewhere. So this time they were working on big collection, talking about some kind of Expo, which will be happening next year in Australia. So that's what I was picking up. Nobody spoke to me about that. I was just hearing them talking about that. And this is was my second year or third, third year in university. And they were talking about next year, so I understand something big just coming then everybody getting ready for that. So next year when everybody were ready to go to Australia, all of a sudden, there was a group of 10 and one model was missing. I don't know what happened to her. Was she fire? Was she sick? I don't know. And they start asking me would you be able to go and that was my last year before diploma and I didn't know. I I was thinking how can I graduate my college and go to Australia for a month, I spoke to my parents and my dad helped me to obtain international passport, which was very difficult to do. It was still Soviet Union, so people wouldn't be able to travel freely abroad. But I got the passport and I was invited to go to Australia for a month and I did. And that was my first experience to go to a different country.

Daniel 16:36

Okay, a couple of questions before we start moving to the first experience, outside the Soviet Union, but first of all, how did your parents take the decision that for you to become a model and leave the country and maybe not focusing so much on on your university? And then did you manage to finish university or not?

Eva 16:58

My parents are my friends till today. They fell in love when they were - it's like Romeo and Juliet story. She was 15 he was 16 they were going to the same school. He fell in love. And they got married when my mom was 19 and my dad was 20. He was a military pilot, and she was a student of history classes in university. So they got me I'm the only child and they trust me. When I told them what's going on with me first of all, I live in Kiev they live in Czechoslovakia. So can you believe the level of trust between parents and a child when the child is by herself in different country, telling your parents I want to become a model and my parents kind of trust me, and they told me if you like it, if you want to do it, do it. And then it was very respectful institution, this fashion house of design was well known. And my dad knew the director and my dad knew what's going on. So, at this point, they the only concern was for me to graduate from the University, but I, I knew how to what steps needed to be taken. So everything went the right way. And when I came back from Australia, I brought Australian Sunday magazine with cover of it with my face with a picture of me. And when I was going through the exams, to get my diploma, that magazine was laying down on the table and teachers were looking at it so everything happened beautifully. Yes, I graduated from the university, I got my bachelor degree.

Daniel 19:10


Eva 19:11

As a construction engineer.

Daniel 19:15

So it's like a completely different from what you were doing.

Eva 19:19

Yes. And when I graduated the university, I was supposed to work for three months in some kind of Bureau, you know, where they do in like blueprints and drawings and all that style, but I was so involved with modeling. And I told the director of that fashion house, I don't know how to do how to, you know, switch, I cannot just drop it, I have to work there. She said, Why you have to work and she pick up the phone and she called the director of that place and she said, Well, I have here. She's one of my best models would you just take care of, you know, moving switching her from your place to mine and she will be working here full time and he said, Sure. So that's how it was done. After I graduated my university. I never worked a day being an engineer. I was just a model for many years. Since that trip to Australia for about, I would say about seven years.

Daniel 20:27

Oh, awesome. Okay, let's go back to the your first trip to Australia. So how did how was it? How was it from moving from because I guess from to this point, you never left Europe you never left the Soviet Union, right?

Eva 20:41

Correct. So I was I was in Poland. Remember when I was little? But I don't remember much.

Daniel 20:47

Yeah, but yeah, exactly. Yeah but Poland at the time was still like a part of the Soviet Union or was?

Eva 20:52


Daniel 20:53

So how was your first experience abroad?

Eva 20:57

So we were taking a flight from Moscow, going to India for a stop, then from India to Singapore, from Singapore to Brisbane. So my first stop was in Delhi airport, India. And when we stepped out from the airplane and I saw something what I've never seen before and people speak different language around that was shock. Then the next step was Singapore. And you can imagine the level of shock there. We were sitting in the airport, this is the I mean, I would say the most gorgeous airport in the world. And after that, we switch the airplane from Singapore to Brisbane, we were taken cuantas and you cross in them. How do you call that line between North and South the middle of

Daniel 22:02

The Ecuador?

Eva 22:03

Yes. So we were crossing that line and they were given us champagne and chocolate and congratulations, you go into the other parts of the earth. And when we - the flight took about seven hours. When we finally landed in Brisbane, I don't even remember what I mean call many hours was the whole trip, probably about 24.

Daniel 22:29

Yeah, probably.

Eva 22:29

And it was the stops and all that. And when we left the airport, and somebody came to pick us up, it was a little minivan. And I looked around, and I couldn't believe my I mean, I was thinking I'm sleeping because first of all the cars are going left, right, right? Like like London.

Daniel 22:51


Eva 22:52

And people speak English. Nobody speak Russian. And the weather is beautiful. It's sunshine and the birds are chirping and like some kind of crazy things going on the smell are different, music is everywhere. People are smiling people have some tan. people wearing nice clothes. Yeah, that was that was amazing.

Daniel 23:19

Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. Because you at this point, you didn't speak any English at all I guess.

Eva 23:25


Daniel 23:26

Okay because you were you're still even in university you were not allowed to learn any other languages?

Eva 23:33

But the beauty of the model you don't have to talk

Daniel 23:37

Yeah, exactly. I guess so. And even imagined like how people react I mean you're like a Russian model going to the to Australia how people reacted to that?

Eva 23:47

They loved us. We had huge pavilion cove from Russia with love. And that pavilion was combined of all the countries which belonged to Soviet Union, like part of it was Ukrainian food and clothes and Ukrainian traditions. Another part was Georgian where they represent in food and music, and all Georgian. You know, beautiful staff was Georgia is proud of. Then part of it was Bella Russia then part of it was Moldova. And all of those Asian countries like the Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, you know, all that music and so the pavilion was amazing. It was full of different experiences, foods, flavors, music, languages. Languages, because people still talk between of them, their native language, but when somebody come into the pavilion, everything is happening in Russia. So it's hard to explain, but that's what it was. Our stage was built in our Ukrainian corner but everything was in Russian and yeah, they knew were from Kiev. But nobody understood Kiev was Ukraine. They thought Kiev is like, like Chicago, you know, but we all belong to United States sort of like that.

Daniel 25:21

Okay, so you and you were there to perform or you were like how do you call like there was like a runaway in your?

Eva 25:29

It was more like a show because we had just seven models, six girls and one guy. So the whole collection was built on the philosophy of representing clothes in some cult of folklore ways. So we had them. Our director of performance director who was picking up the music and some kind of moves. So it's not a dance. It's like kind of choreography, a little bit on the stage. And it's always like two or three models on the stage. Then the guy coming out all those two first models going back and change fast. We have like a minute to change. Then we come back again then they got so the show was about 35, 40 minutes, but when when it orchestrated the way she did it, you see the models come in and go in, but the show is keep going on. It's hard to explain, but it was well done. And it was very, very popular. We had three performances today, one in the morning, one during lunchtime, and one in evening, and even in one was usually longer and we had more kind of evening clothes. So it was was more like, even in feelings. We had dim lights and music was different. I enjoyed every single moment of it. I still love it when I remember it. I I would love to go back.

Daniel 27:17

I bet and you did there for a month. You were there for a month?

Eva 27:20

Yes, we were there for 30 days.

Daniel 27:23

Awesome. And did your life change were like when you came back and then you started like a working full time as a as a model this point, right?

Eva 27:31

First of all, I lost like 20 pounds, not 20 I'm kidding. Maybe 10 pounds. I became so skinny because with this kind of work. I've never been working that hard before. Plus, the diet is different. You eat a lot of fruits and vegetables. We didn't have that much luxury Soviet Union. So maybe I tried my first banana in Australia, and I fell in love with fruits and I still do have a lot of fruits and vegetables for my regular diet. So we've got so much tan because after, you know, we have like, maybe a day off, maybe Saturday, I don't know not Saturday, maybe Tuesday, the day when the expo was not that busy. They gave us a day off and they brought us to the ocean and we got some suntan. Yeah, so when I came back to my reality, I was different person. I, I'm still like you haven't experienced being in New Zealand. When you've been to that kind of that corner of the world. You will always remember like, it's different. The sky is different. Remember, there is a cross in the sky. Celtic cross.

Daniel 29:00

I never seen like a blue sky like I saw in New Zealand is just so blue. So so you came back and then you have this kind of feeling that from from this trip to from Australia. Is that click something in your head and you decided that you want to keep going do you keep traveling you want to move abroad or?

Eva 29:21

You know, Daniel, I was never ever ever thinking, I want to move and live in different country. I love Kiev so much. I love Ukraine. It's such a beautiful country. It's everything was going on there. It's so you know, I'm not talking politics. I'm talking about like landscaping and weather and music and food and clothes people so creative, so I was so happy being there. But after Australia we start getting so many invitations to participate to different fashion events like for example, Munich. It was happening in October during Octoberfest. They invited us to Munich for four days. And we were doing the same kind of show on a plaza. And everywhere we have sort of, I mean, first of all, it's a lot of immigrants like Russians and Ukrainians and from other countries all over the world. So every time when we were going somewhere, a lot of immigrants were coming visiting us and they were physically touching us like they couldn't believe they eyes. They see girls from Soviet Union, which they haven't seen. When they were moving the country. They were called dissidents, right. Is that the word?

Daniel 30:51

What sorry?

Eva 30:52

Dissidents, like you given up your country, you know, you cannot leave Soviet Union easily. You have to give up on everything, you have to become like enemy. So it was very, very difficult here and when those people were immigrating, they were immigrating forever. It's easier now. I live here, but I can go back to Ukraine anytime I want because it's Ukraine. It's not Soviet Union anymore. Those years when you left Soviet Union there is no way back.

Daniel 31:25

Oh, really. So if you decided to leave Soviet Union you couldn't they wouldn't you get in?

Eva 31:32

No. That's why when they saw us, they like they couldn't believe they see people from bayland and we're going back and they can't yeah, that was the years. Now it's not like that, but it used to be.

Daniel 31:50

Yeah, that sounds what it was like in the 90s, something like that?

Eva 31:54

before the 90s. The Soviet Union collapsed in 1991 in August. We were in Mexico. We were in Mexico for three weeks. It was planned to be three weeks and all of a sudden one morning, usually the embassy was sending the bus for us picking us up and bringing us to the stages. But that morning, nobody came to pick us up and we sit in at the hotel waiting what's going on our directories calling embassy, nobody's picking up the phone. And we couldn't understand what's going on. And then we came back to the hotel and we see the TV and the showing things are driving, riding all over the mosko. And we couldn't understand what's going on because everything is happening in Spanish on TV, and nobody's explaining us what's going on. So no, I couldn't call my dad because we have no phone, no connections and were sitting Mexico City, having no idea what's going on. And after like maybe few hours finally somebody picked up the phone. And I remember, my director was asking what's going on? And she said nothing. We just have new government.

Daniel 33:22

Oh, it was no science because I don't know much about it.

Eva 33:26

It was it was Soviet Union collapse. And yeah. And we are in, in Mexico, like across the world. And we have no idea how to get back to Moscow because because we have nothing, we don't have passports, they took all our documents. They took our tickets. You know, when you travel, you don't belong to yourself. Everything is taken care of some kind of group of people who in charge of you, you don't travel like you, you travel like, group, right? So when you fly from Moscow and you in Mexico City, first thing you report to the embassy, and they say, okay, you stay in here for three weeks and you give all your documents, we didn't do anything models had no idea what's going on. But as I learned later, our director gave all our information to the embassy. And at this point, embassy is not in charge anymore. So we were kind of experiencing two or three days of uncertainty.

Daniel 34:38

You your dad was in the military, were you afraid or scared that something would happen to him?

Eva 34:47

Oh, should I talk about that?

Daniel 34:51

I don't know up to you. That's that's what comes to my mind. I mean-

Eva 34:53

It was, it was a very challenging times. Yes. My mom was very scared.

Daniel 34:58

Yeah, I bet. I don't know if you want talk about it was just my curiosity because that's what I will think of okay. I mean, especially being on the other side of the world, you don't know what's going on. And usually when you don't know what's going on, you think of the worst possible scenario, right?

Eva 35:13

Absolutely. When I came back Finally, safely, as soon as we came back to Kiev, I remember, they start talking, oh, congratulations. Congratulations to me. And I'm like, what's going on? And they said, Don't you know, your father became a minister of defense of Ukraine. Ukraine is free country now. It's independent. And your dad was appointed to be First Minister of Defense. That's how I learned it.

Daniel 35:50

That's great. It was was that was that at the airport?

Eva 35:53

Probably airport. I don't remember the flight was too long. We flew from Mexico City to somewhere in Europe, Shannon, usually Shannon was taking us for a ride, like refueling and all that stuff. And from Shannon, it was another three or four hours to Moscow. So yeah, when we just landed, they start talking.

Daniel 36:18

And were you able to because now when you told me that he they got your passport and they change the government that reminds me of the movie, terminal that the guy was stuck in the airport, they couldn't leave because the country just changed the government and was it the same case for you or you're just able to get into the country without a passport?

Eva 36:37

Well, they - the passports were in good hands. So we were traveling with KGB watching us so KGB was in charge of passports and documents. So we we we didn't travel on our own. We were kind of appointed. That was it wasn't that scary. But for me to understand at these days, the embassy is not in charge anymore. That was what's scary, but everything went fine.

Daniel 37:12

Oh, okay. That's That's great, and so how did you end up in the US?

Eva 37:18

Yeah, so hold those years we were traveling. And during my working at fashion house, I met a guy who was working for some kind of international company in Ukraine. But he is Ukrainian. He lives in Kiev. And he starts offering me to go with him for coffee for a drink. So we start dating. And then he told me his plans are to go to visit United States. And I thought, wow, I never been to United States. I've been everywhere but United States. So he told me well let me go. Let me see how, if I like it, I'll invite you. So he moved about, maybe a year after we start dating, and year after that he invited me to visit. And I he bought me a ticket. He created an invitation. And thank God I was traveling a lot. It wasn't a problem for me to go on like personal trip, not the group trip, but personal. So that was my first time traveling without fashion house or design, but just by myself. And I flew to Chicago. And I just fell in love with Chicago. It was on August. Like now the weather is beautiful. Everything is beautiful, it's hot, it's humid. And I was already experienced with the language. I spoke a little while not too much, but like, I could understand what's going on. And I spent a month in Chicago. And then I came back to Ukraine. I was still working at the Russian House of Design, but he invited me again to spend New Year in the United States. I flew back and we went to Florida for a new year. That was another crazy experience. New year with the palm trees. Everything is so new, and then we flew to Las Vegas. And that blowed my mind. I never ever could imagine something like that, you know, watching Cirque du Soleil all that something what you couldn't even imagine can be possible. Plus me being very arty and being on stage a lot. I appreciate when people doing something impossible to do. Plus the music plus the lights, like the whole production was amazing. So, a little by little, I will start thinking how much I love United States. how diverse it is, how like if you travel from one state to another, how much difference and you know, everything is so new so unexpected and those years we didn't have internet so you cannot you know before you go somewhere now you can just like see everything right what you want to visit and what you want to learn what you want to you can buy tickets everywhere.

Daniel 40:44


Eva 40:44

Those years you just have to go and just experience being there.

Daniel 40:51

Let's go back a little bit. So you dated this guy for a year. First of all, why did he move to the US?

Eva 40:58

So he he's lucky guy. He's very lucky all his life. He was speaking English because he graduated from University of Languages in Kiev. So he was fluent in English when he came here and he came here, right after Soviet Union collapsed. So it was a lot of huge interests to people from that part of the world. So he was young, he was ambitious, and he spoke three languages. So maybe maybe four he speak a little bit of French. A friend of his, invited him to the company he was working for that was agricultural company. And they were having brokers, traders, and they told him, if you decide to become a trader, for us broker, you can study for free, you will start trading, you will not get any commissions, because you will be basically paying for your education trading for us. And he accepted his start working for a small company located somewhere in Midwest, but the company was working with Chicago Board of Trade. And he learned it fast. And since he was from Europe, he had that kind of angle on the agriculture, which they didn't have, you know, like kind of vision. How Ukraine is the breadbasket of Europe, Ukraine is having a lot of wheat. And he knew that and he could educate and he could translate the articles and we still didn't have internet so everything was like information was a gold. So he was very useful. And the year after he was successful enough start making money. And he does the same thing till today.

Daniel 43:10

Oh, wow.

Eva 43:11

All his life.

Daniel 43:14

So at some point you decided to move to the US with him?

Eva 43:18

Yeah, I was traveling back and forth for about couple of years. And at one point, we he already bought an apartment. He bought a car. And it was kind of time to think about a family. And yeah, we decided to get married. We had wait enough to just him and I got married in City Hall in Chicago. It was 15 minutes procedure. And then after that, we went for beautiful, wonderful dinner. And yeah, that's how I I never ever thought I will be moving to the United States. It wasn't the plan. My life was great. I was happy in Ukraine, but that's how it happened. My other part of me was here, and we decided to build a family.

Daniel 44:22

So you move completely to move to the US?

Eva 44:25


Daniel 44:26

And were you able to carry on with your career as a model or you have to change?

Eva 44:32

Oh, that's where the downhill begins. So moved into us with no documents. I mean, I had a tourist visa for six months, which was I was legally in the country for six months, but I should leave this country after that. I had no language. I had nothing else. He was working, and he was having an apartment. And he had, I believe he had a green card by this time, but I could be mistaken. We got married, so we were legal probably had a green card, otherwise he wouldn't be able to get married. And from that point, he applied for me to get the green card. But those years it was such a long process. It took me seven years to get a green card.

Daniel 45:37

Oh, wow.

Eva 45:38

Because how should I put it? Everything was going on slowly. But if you want it faster, you have to pay money, right? You have to get better lawyer. You have to push it. We probably didn't do it. I don't know. He was in charge of my process. And I went through the fingerprints and I went through a couple of interviews. And well I was legal in the country because I was going through the process, but I did not have a right to work. I was I applied for Social Security and I was waiting for it. But at the moment, it was kind of very close. September 11 happened and everybody who were waiting for the green card, put on hold. So after September 11, it took me probably two more years to get green card.

Daniel 46:45

At so until until this point, you couldn't work? You were fully like living full time in the US at this point?

Eva 46:52

Yeah. I was working like here and there. For example, I became Mary Kay distributor, you know that company, right? It's like multi level marketing.

Daniel 47:04

No, I don't think I have ever.

Eva 47:05

Skincare company. Yeah, it's American. So I start doing that. That's how I started learning English. That's how I start learning how to sell, how to talk to people how to, you know, get customers how to influence. That was a great experience. I was doing that for maybe a year. I couldn't say I made a lot of money, but I got a lot of knowledge. How to talk to American woman. They were very curious because it's still the time when we had no cell phone, no GPS. So I was driving with my paper map on my lap, driving around just selling lipsticks.

Daniel 47:40

And were your like background as a model was helping you to perform better or selling this product?

Eva 48:05

Well everybody is saying of course you can do it because you're model look at you. They were thinking it's easier for me than for other people but no, it's not. You have the set of tools given you. So I was given a look, but I wasn't given an experiences I wasn't given language. I wasn't given skills, right. You have to work on those parts of you, which you don't have. And other people thinking, Oh, she has a look. Assuming you have everything else too. Because they have language. They live here. They have, you know, other stuff, which I don't have. I didn't have money. I was thinking constantly how to earn money to put it back into my business because you have to buy product. Now when people do multi level marketing, they don't have to buy anything. Everything is web based. You just have to invest in like website and put yourself as a consultant for example, I still do Rodan and Fields. It's cosmetics line from California. But I don't have to buy product. I just have to tell people I'm doing this if you want to buy you can buy from my website. And if they buy and I am getting the commissions. Those days, I should get physical product like boxes and boxes were arriving to me and I should keep it in my house. And when I'm going to sell it, I have to put it in my car, drive it you know put it in a basket.

Daniel 50:03

Yeah, it was definitely like an investment up front and raised that if you don't sell a you will lose money.

Eva 50:08

Your stock was 12 boxes of moisturizer.

Daniel 50:14

The good thing is you can always use it for yourself.

Eva 50:18

That's what my husband said. He's like, okay, let's start using it. I was saying no I want to sell it.

Daniel 50:26

And why did you decide to stay was the main thing that decided to stay because you had a good career back in back in Ukraine?

Eva 50:34

Yeah, those years in Ukraine were tough. When Ukraine became independent, everything start happening so fast and not necessarily to good. The government was different. It was a lot of challenges for the country. People, a lot of people didn't believe in the bright future. People start leaving the country. You know, it's like good and bad together. Like, for example, what happened here in United States few months ago? Who would have thought, you know, you would be witnessing what's going on in the streets of Chicago, New York, right? Like those riots and you're never prepared for stuff like that. So that's exactly what start happening in Ukraine. So being here in United States, I was looking back and thinking, should I go now? Or maybe I should wait a little. So I, I was thinking and thinking, and I, I ended up being here for like, 20 years.

Daniel 51:50

And do you have any regrets about leaving leaving your country?

Unknown Speaker 51:53

No, I love United States of America. I think it's, it's as more I learned about it as more I am fell in love with this land, because this is the land of immigrants, it's very difficult path to get here. You have to give away, the comfort of your language, you have to give away the comfort of your family and friends of your cities and towns and villages you used to be and go to somewhere you don't know what's gonna be happening to you. I respect every one of immigrant who decided to do that. Because everybody driven by one idea. I'm going somewhere to be more happy. I'm doing this for me and for my kids. And a lot of people doing it for kids. Even if they suffering. They know, especially kids who were born here. Like my kids. They different people. They don't know what I know. They already belong to this country. They already program to be free. I trained myself to be free. They don't have to do that they already free. They equipped.

Daniel 53:28

Yeah. And they start on the same level of anybody else right?

Eva 53:32


Daniel 53:33

So yeah, that's the thing for me and for many other people like us that when you move to new new country, especially if you don't speak the same language, you pretty much have to start from the bottom. Just even in your career, you have to start from the last place. It's rare that you can because I met other people that were like coming from a English speaking country and move to a new country. They were if they were like a certain level in their career in a home country, they move to a new one and were pretty much on the same level. While for people that don't speak the language, you can't start on the same level you have to start from the very bottom in and climb that climb the ladder till you get to the point and most of the time you ended up at a higher place where because you are built such a resilient and such a strength from climbing the ladder that you you're not gonna stop at where you were, you just keep going. You carry on and you just make a better future and a better position and you grow much a lot more than people that actually born in the same country.

Eva 54:36

That's right. Yes. Plus, I respect immigrants because they, you know, the person who doesn't want to grow would never take a chance to go somewhere. I mean, they already happy right the person who lives in Ukrainian small village and happy with every single day of whatever is going on would never think to go to America. They can go to visit, but you have to be, you have to have a lot of strength and self belief. And I don't know a lot of something in you to go and just like my husband did he came here with a suitcase, like he's telling to his kids. He didn't have enough money. I mean, he didn't have enough money for a month to be here, but he didn't have millions. He didn't have any place to be here. He just came here with the suitcase and everything what he built here, just because of him.

Daniel 55:50


Eva 55:51

So I wasn't thinking to stay here but it just happened it just life just grab me and you know, but what I what I like about like, looking back, I, I was growing. Me who moved here 20 years ago and me who I am today, it's like two different people. I gained so many, so many different experiences so much knowledge. So, like when I come back to Ukraine now and when I see what people going through, I sort of like from the future. I'm like, Okay, I know what's going on now. But I know what's gonna happen to you after. Because United States is ahead of other countries. We know. We kind of went through a lot what those countries are about to go. So that's how I would put it.

Daniel 56:51

Yeah, you're right. And what was your biggest upside about immigrating?

Eva 56:55

I think to be naturalized, to become an American citizen, to get an American passport. To gain an American mentality to become free. Don't forget I'm from Soviet Union. So for the person who was born in a country, which was closed on many levels to become free, it's a big deal. Free inside, it's not like free what I'm picking to do today or you see the problems, not the problems, but like challenges. You see anything what's going on with you or with others as a challenge and as an opportunity. This is the freedom. Every day you have a choice to be better you than you were yesterday because you learn something that's an amazing life I have and I would never ever give it up if I would start again I would probably do exactly the same what I did.

Daniel 58:20

under percent agree with you. And yeah, as you said that the freedom. Now I can speak for my own personal experience, but it's kind of like the freedom of kind of nothing to lose or actually feel like you are you can do anything you want. That's what I felt when I went to New Zealand I gave up my job my my secure job I could call in Italy. And I think for me that was kind of like a freed me for not having don't have anything to lose. Because sometimes you get stuck in one job. You don't particularly like it but you're too afraid to quit this job because you don't know if you can find another one especially in countries like Italy where the economy's pretty bad. And for me like a quitting my job like, Okay, perfect. I got nothing else to lose. And why not move to New Zealand to a new country I saw so many opportunities I could have been whatever I wanted, I can learn a new skill and become a plumber or become an electrician or become something else I could learn and can become anything I wanted. And that's that was, for me there was the freedom I felt when I moved to a new country, the freedom of being whatever I wanted, were no limit of what I could achieve, or just, you have to work through it. And it worked to get to the point where you want to go but you, you have the freedom to believe that you can do anything you want.

Eva 59:40

Absolutely. I agree with you hundred percent. I'm always saying to my kids, they old enough to understand and they start asking questions about my young age when I used to live in Soviet Union and I'm saying now I have box of paints, and I have, I can paint my life that color I want and nobody can stop me. When I was a child, my life was black and white. Like, seriously, my life was black and white, you cannot add any color because you can't. Because the government is not letting you or the school or the streets or the, you know, anything, you just have to follow the rules and every single day looks exactly the same like the day before. And if somebody is dreaming about something, they were either crazy, or, you know, out of this world, they were called names. So that's how it was and now, whatever you want, wherever you can imagine, anything can happen to you. Because you know how you have tools. You have and you know what else is great about United States, you always can find find people, the same level of you are right? The same kind of approach to life. So, like, for example, you and I talking for an hour, the other person, you cannot keep up the conversation for two minutes. You don't ever know what to say anymore. It's not because somebody's bad or good. It's just because it's different. And you always have the ability to find the people, the group that like, for example, SFM, which I just found recently. I'm absolutely happy to belong there and find people with the same vision, the same level of talent. I mean, it's amazing. That's what United States is.

Daniel 1:00:27

Yeah, yes, you're right. You're such a great community. And when you receive your green card did you get a job or you continue your business of selling cosmetics?

Eva 1:02:07

I'll just tell you how many different industries I've been here since I got finally got my green card and then my passport. And I got my ability to work legally. I still didn't have enough of English so I went to work from doing Mary Kay, I went to work for department store, because I still love fashion. I love cosmetics. I love everything beautiful. Save the world, right? So I went to the department store and I remember one customer lady came and she was asking for a particular product, which I didn't know what it is, but I told her if you give me a second to look around and I'll find it for you just give me a chance. And she was waiting. First of all, she was waiting and patiently then just start being more patient with me seeing how sincere I am, you know, trying to help her. And after I finally found what she was looking for, she gave me this feedback. Stay in this country. We need people like you.

Daniel 1:03:17

That's beautiful.

Eva 1:03:18

And I will never forget this. Yes.

Daniel 1:03:21

So and so what do you do? What do you do now?

Eva 1:03:25

After that department store, I decided to get an education because I understand my education from Ukraine doesn't. I mean, nobody cares, right, whatever you graduated there from so I went to University of Phoenix and I got my online Master's of business Business Administration in two years. Hundred percent online so I was doing that school. And after that, I started looking for a job and I found a job in a very aggressive startup IT company, I was doing marketing for them. I learned all the product about 4g, LTE, 5g, all that stuff and was very successful marketer was traveling all over the Illinois all over the United States, selling the product and doing marketing campaigns, and then the company switch the course and they went different directions. So they switch management and I just quit. Then I decided I want to be a banker. And I went to work for a bank. And I learned all the banking. My manager, she was awesome. She just sent me to the trainings and I went to five months of trainings. I learned everything what banking can do, and that's the most war in industry. If you ask me. I would never ever go back to bank. That's how you learn what you are not right otherwise we would never know. So after being a banker, I decided to go back to retail. And I went to Neiman Marcus if you know, very fancy department store in the United States, they sell all Italian brands. And I was was offered the position of cosmetics counter manager, which I love. I was doing cosmetics, and I love to be in store and it was full time job well, money and everything.

And the COVID-19 happened. And in February, we stopped working and I'm still not thinking to go back because in February, when I, you know, call it 19 happened and you start reevaluating everything what's going on in the world? You don't know where to start from, is it the world? Or is it me or who is wrong and who did wrong and why it's that's all happening. So I was kind of in search of, I don't know me again. And I was spending some time on YouTube. And I found a lady her name was Alondra Anca, who was talking about something I couldn't even understand exactly what your message was, but she was talking about law of attraction which I love to read about and then be free. Find yourself. Don't do what you don't like doing. You can do better than that. And I was kind of start following her and listening. And since you are not working anymore, I have a lot of extra time I start walking, running and I put her on my phone, and I started listening more and more. And one day she said, if you want to open your own business, do it. And I clicked the link. And there is like, message. The webinar starts in two minutes. I'm like, Wow, that's awesome. And I participated to the webinar. And there is a such a handsome face on the screen. And the guy is talking with such beautiful accent. And he's saying Hi, it's so nice to have you here. My name is Stuart and I would like to walk you through this and this and the webinar was kind of short, but by the end of the webinar, I was sold. I said, I should try it. That's probably what I was looking for. That's what probably will make me busy because you know you you want to do something with your life you cannot just sit home and complain about the government. It's it's not us. We, the people who want to develop and evolve, we should keep looking don't settle as said Steve Jobs, and I participate to the SFM program. And every single day, I was discover more and more, how timely it is. how intelligent it is how educated how Fun. And I have 40 friends from 40 countries. It's not like you in your town or city or corporation or if you all over the world, you're all over the globe. I love those webinars when everybody join in and some people saying it's three o'clock in the morning here, but I'm still listening. I just absolutely love it.

Daniel 1:09:34

Yeah, no, I agree. 100% we do the fact that we need to keep learning keep growing. Even myself, I started this this podcast, because of SFM I joined SFM in February, and I went through the program for the modules and, and through that I found the courage to do something that I wanted to do for years. I wanted to start my own podcast for years. I've been thinking to do it with my brother. He has a company in Italy for the Dutch water treatment. And I thought we could start something together and talk about water water treatment. It's something that I wanted to do, I wanted to do a podcast and, and going through all these modules, they tells you how to provide value to other people to help other people. And that's where everything came into place. And then I say, Okay, this is what I want to do. I want to help other people emigrating do the things that I did, and the things the best issues I've ever made in my life. I want to help other people doing the same thing. And that's where this podcast started. Because because of that, I found the courage and I found the tools and the resources I needed through through the SFM. And I met you for the SFM too

Eva 1:10:48


Daniel 1:10:49

It's such a such a great community and as you said, like people from all over the world and like same people with the same goals and ambitions. It's such a good place to be.

Eva 1:11:02

Yes, it's amazing. And I think Stewart and Jay did something, what they did something what future is about. Because every person is unique. Every person needs to learn what they capable of. And being a number in the corporate world, right like I was in banking, nobody cares what I can do or say or you know, you just have to follow the simple steps and do them over and over and over and over and you will get paid. But that's not who I am. And SFM is given us a chance to discover what inside of us, what we can do, how we can do it, who we can do it with. And in the process of doing it, have fun and enjoy doing it. And you always can pick a group of people you want to do it with. That's another freedom.

Daniel 1:12:23

Yeah, I agree. Going back to your story, what was the biggest challenge that you had to face when you move to the US?

Eva 1:12:32

Of course, language. Language was the biggest challenge because as you said, no matter how important person you were in your country, you come here. And if you want to position yourself somewhere, you got to start talking right? You got to tell people about you. And if you cannot communicate people don't take you seriously they kind of what I experienced people couldn't keep up a conversation with me. Because I look like a child. You know, I can't tell anything. I want to tell something but I don't know how. And they feel sorry. And they like, okay, that's fine was nice meeting you. And I feel stupid. I'm like, I can tell you everything what I know but I don't know how. So I start taking classes I went to berlitz school. And it was very difficult from the beginning because I had some kind of reading and writing skills. But I, I had zero communication skill, I couldn't talk. And they put me in a group where a lot of people were sort of fluently, talking well. They said if you'll be in this group, you will start talking but you have to go through this difficult period when you feel terrible. And that's another step out of your comfort zone. I could give up I could say no, I don't want to do this. It's It's too much or it's too difficult or it's okay, I'm fine. But no, I was going to those classes feeling stupid, feeling crazy, but I don't know how but that's always slight edge. You know, there's that book right, slight edge when you don't see that edge today and you don't see it tomorrow, but in a month or two, you already progress. And when you look back, you see how far you moved. But it's invisible day by day when you do in it and do it and keep doing you think nothing is going on, nothing is happening and everything is the same. But somehow I start talking, speaking. And yeah.

Daniel 1:15:11

So you said there was a book, the Slight Edge?

Eva 1:15:13

Slight Edge by Jeff Olson.

Daniel 1:15:16

Yeah. It's kind of like even the Connecting the Dots that Steve Jobs says in the speech at Stanford,

Eva 1:15:24

You're right. Yes. From the beginning, you don't know you, you don't know what's the result you expecting. And like, for example, the beginning of the book is telling a small story about one father who was dying, he offered his two sons either take a penny or take a million dollars. And he said, come tomorrow and tell me which one you pick and one son said, of course, million dollars. And the other son said, huh, why he's offering me a penny. I'm curious why and then one song took million dollars and the other one took a penny and the guy who took million dollars spend those million dollars very fast. And the other guy who took a penny he invested it and he got two pennies next day for pennies day after 12 pennies another day. And then couple of years he gained millions and millions of dollars. And he knew how to make money how to manage money and yeah, that's the philosophy. So slight edge is something what we don't see. But if we keep progressing listening to your heart, listening to your intuition, you will become successful and happy.

Daniel 1:16:53

One other thing that fascinates me is the theory of 1% the 1% principle. So when you become like a 1% better every single day you improve only 1% every single day. At the end of the year, you're 37 times better.

Eva 1:17:11


Daniel 1:17:12

So even just that isn't like it's crazy. You don't have to do like a big step every single day after just a start small steps improving learning more, you can believe it, how much you can grow in only one year how much you can achieve all in only one year if you keep making these steps, these little steps.

Eva 1:17:32

That's exactly the philosophy I want to put on the my idea, which I am kind of working on right now. I want to work with women of my age. Doesn't matter what culture doesn't matter what background but women who went through a lot of experiences, maybe got the family, maybe had maybe had kids, maybe they did not maybe. But at this point of your life, you want to either keep improving. Or some people, a lot of people given up, they think, wow, I've done a lot. Well, there is nothing else for me. But if you keep moving, following those little steps, which every day there is an opportunity for you. There is every day something good happening. And if you find those step stones every single day, you'll keep moving. And especially at this age, because when you're young, everything is open for you. Everything is, you know, in bloom, but when you're ready Have a lot behind your shoulders, this is kind of time when a lot of people given up and when you give up on you, nobody else can help you. So that's exactly what you said if you do something even invisible but keep doing, you keep moving forward

Daniel 1:19:24

Yeah 100% and I know this is rude I shouldn't ask this, you brought it up so what what kind of age? What's the age you you're targeting?

Eva 1:19:35

I'm 50

Daniel 1:19:37

And where people can find more about your your project more of what are you doing?

Eva 1:19:43

I wish I would give you some information. I promise I will get back to you is my - for now I have a Twitter account and Instagram but I don't update them so they kind of old so I'm working on my website, I already have a domain. I believe my website will be ready by the end of August. So if you please give me a couple of weeks, I will get back to you with more information on this.

Daniel 1:20:17

Okay, there's there's no rush. There's no rush. Whenever the website is ready, you will find it in the show notes.

Eva 1:20:23

Sounds great.

Daniel 1:20:24

And do you feel lucky to be an immigrant?

Eva 1:20:26

You know, I feel lucky to have my kids being an Americans. I believe they lucky to be an Americans and as a result, I like it to be an immigrant. Yes. Yes. Well, especially in United States. It's it's an amazing country. It's always growing. It's always getting better even now, through the terrible time of COVID and people die and it's still you know, people becoming more sensitive, more sincere, more understanding and forgiving. I'm not talking about government. I don't even think about the government right now. I talk about an American, like every person going through very challenging times, on many levels. But still look at us were talking about love the talking about music and movies and fashion and you know, weather and travel. A lot of people travelling virtually now. Like, visit in other countries on YouTube and then talk about this. People becoming more and more creative and because of technology, because of this ability to see and you can take a picture and video of any moment of your life and post it and like I do video call with my parents every single day. They're in Ukraine, I'm here, but we have quality time. And that's what being an immigrant is to find your spot. And, you know, do something first of all for yourself. Like, I'm very happy because I found myself here. It took me many, many years. If I would stay in bank, doing banking job, I would be unhappy. Sometimes I was driving home crying all the way home, thinking why do I do that? I don't like it. But I didn't know how to change and how to and what I never knew what I wanted, but I was keep looking. And that's the beauty of it. That's the beauty of this country.

Daniel 1:23:12

Yeah, there's like cause so many opportunities. Right?

Eva 1:23:15


Daniel 1:23:16

Awesome. So it was a pleasure having you here. Your story is such a such an amazing story going through all what you've been through. And it's I don't know, I learned a lot about Soviet Union that I didn't even know. And it was it was really good having you here. So thank you so much for accepting the invitation and, and finding time to do this interview.

Eva 1:23:40

Thank you so much, Daniel. And I can tell a couple of words about your business. I think you came up with something very fresh, very new, very cool, because people guess what people love talking about the most? Themselves. So you let people talk about themselves. That's amazing. I wish good luck to you. Okay?

Daniel 1:24:08

Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you for much for the kind words and that's that's what keeps motivates me to, to keep going to do this podcast even if there's a lot of work, especially working full time. But it's it's I don't know, it's such a such a cool way of sharing other people's stories and I'm so fascinated by other people's stories and this topic in particular, how people immigrated. It is so motivating. It's just what the people the challenges that people have to go through, I don't know just motivates me to challenges I have every single day, my life and it's just so motivating. And another thing that I'd like to share with you now that one of the reason why I love sharing these stories is that these stories is not just for helping other people that wants to move to their country to find resources to actually move to their countries its more, it's even a reason for the guest there share the story to have these stories for the future generation. I imagine like what if my mom or my dad just had the interview like you do today and I could be able to hear it when they are not here anymore? That will be such a legacy, even like my kids or even for myself, like talking and sharing my stories. I don't know my yeah, my grandchildren will listen to my voice when I won't be here anymore. That's, I don't know if that's for is special that just leave something for some kind of like a legacy of future generation. And it's, I don't know, it's priceless. I love it.

Eva 1:25:49

And I wish you a lot of luck, Daniel, you're doing a great job. Something very, very important.

Daniel 1:25:56

Thank you, thank you so much.

Eva 1:25:58

Thank you.

Daniel 1:25:59

Awesome. Bye.

Eva 1:26:01


Daniel 1:26:03

Thank you so much for tuning in this week. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Eva. If you want to get in touch with her, you can find the links in the show notes on 14. On the show notes, you can also find the pictures of Eva when she was a model and the cover of the magazine she was on. And if you want to support the show, you can share this episode and you can leave us a review on Apple podcasts. Do you want to share your story? You can visit Thanks again for listening. Talk to you next one. Ciao!